Resource Library - Why Your Best Employee Might Be a Terrible Manager

Summary

In this insightful interview, Ron Reich shares his journey from HR to leadership coaching, emphasizing the importance of culture, emotional intelligence, and effective communication in leadership development. Discover practical strategies for fostering organizational culture, managing change, and enhancing leadership skills at all levels.

Takeaways

• Leadership can be learned.
• Ask more, tell less.
• Great leaders create future leaders.
• Promotion and leadership are not the same thing.
• Clear expectations prevent conflict.
• Culture happens with or without you.
• Train leaders before training teams.
• Change needs a compelling reason.
• Emotional intelligence matters.
• Delegation is a sign of trust.

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Transcript

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Hello, hello and welcome to another episode of the Koyoti Small Business Podcast, a resource library for your small business. we.

talk a lot about leadership. And the thing is, when we are talking about leadership, most times is what we found is that most people aren't trained in leadership, but they get, they rise through the ranks and without getting that leadership training. So today we are very, very fortunate to have Ron with us. And Ron is the

Ron is Ron is the expert in from, RLB training and development. Welcome Ron.

Ron Reich (00:55.48)
Thank you, thank you, it is good to be here.

Thomas (00:59.779)
In our conversations you've you've talked a lot about We've talked a lot about books and is there is there one is there one? One or two couple of kind of standout Titles that you would recommend for people to read when it comes to when it comes to when it comes to leadership

Ron Reich (01:07.182)
you

Ron Reich (01:23.726)
You know, Thomas, it's interesting because one or two maybe yes. And the reason I say that, there are so many different aspects of leadership that I could recommend, you know, probably truly 15, 20 different books. Two that pop into my head instantly. Number one, Leading at a Higher Level, written by Ken Blanchard.

from situational leadership. I recommend that simply because it covers a lot of different things. talks, he gives a wonderful overview of the model itself of situational leadership. When is it appropriate to direct somebody, coach somebody, support them and to delegate. Yeah, the other reason I like it, he talks about, he talks about that from the perspective, how to do it one on one.

and also how to delegate and the other styles with teams. Additionally, he talks a lot about the need for recognition and just interacting with the teams, which is wonderful. I would recommend that for just about, for anybody at any different level. The other book that I like a lot was called, Leadership is Language. And that's written by a gentleman named David Marquet.

and much more for a seasoned, experienced leader. And what he talks in there about is that a leader should do very, very, very little talking during the day, essentially. During a meeting, very little talking. Your colleagues should be doing the majority of the talking. You're listening. You're listening.

And the reason he says that is so often, and it's been my experience on both sides when I, know, when a leader has been running a meeting and I've been attending. Here folks, this is what I think we should do. Now I want your input and everybody at the table just about. Yes, boss, I think what you think, boss, absolutely. And those types of things. And instead of that, his very simple recommendation is, folks, I asked you to prepare in advance.

Ron Reich (03:43.51)
This is what we're gonna talk about today. We're gonna go around the table. I wanna hear from each one of you first. I want you to give me your recommendation. When we're finished, I'll give you mine. And that way you get even more information as the leader. Maybe you'll change your mind, maybe not. Point being, you're gonna get more accurate information that way. The other reason I like this is that his big recommendation is,

Thomas (04:06.371)
I love that.

Ron Reich (04:13.074)
always, always ask open-ended questions instead of the classic closed. Okay, for example, okay, Thomas, are you ready for the podcast? How can you answer me? No, I know, just really yes or no. Better question. Thomas, how prepared are you for the podcast?

Thomas (04:28.989)
No. Right, right, right, right. Exactly.

Ron Reich (04:40.366)
On a scale of one to 10, how ready are you for the podcast? One being not at all, 10 being completely ready. Ron, I'm at a seven. OK, fine. What do we need to do to move you to a nine or a 10? And those types of things. And I mean, I've been doing that ever since I've read the book. And then I'll tell you, it does generate more discussion. And that's what you're after. Always more, the more information, the better off you're going to be.

Thomas (05:08.291)
100%. Thank you for that. Yeah, that thing that I think that starts us off on a very really good footing. So let's take take take us back a little bit. Growing up, little Ron, where what is I can't imagine that little Ron wanted to wanted to become a leadership coach. You know, what was the dream?

Ron Reich (05:18.22)
you

Ha ha.

Ron Reich (05:28.365)
Ha

Ron Reich (05:32.334)
The dream for me, always, all I ever really wanted to do, and again, I'll go back to an author or a book, is I was always interested in helping people, always. there's research around this. I don't remember which book it was. An author that I like, Marcus Buckingham, I'm actually reading his book right now called Design Love.

And he talks about though, by the age of three or four, our personalities are formed. It's over, it's done. And then we become more of who we already are. And as I think back, that's a lot of what I was like as a little kid. I liked helping people. I liked to assist and just those kinds of things. And that's what I'm doing now.

I just always enjoyed that. I I started off in HR and I think, you you and I talked about that in our pre-conversations. And then, you know, first 10, 12 years of my career, and it was okay. It wasn't something about which I was passionate and having gotten into training and development and coaching. This is my calling. This is what I just absolutely love to do.

Thomas (06:58.755)
And so what, what was it about HR that drew you to that? it that you were being able to help people or was it, were able to help companies? What, what, what were you helping when you, what, what was the thought when you were getting into HR and who were you, who, who did you think that you were going to be able to help?

Ron Reich (07:12.021)
you

Ron Reich (07:16.422)
Yeah. Again, it's interesting because as a 22-year-old kid, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I I really wasn't. I knew I wanted to be around people. I knew I couldn't be chained to a desk or anything like that. It was the classic thing. It's not what you know, it's who you know. I knew the Senior Executive Vice President of HR at a bank.

And he helped me get into his department there, the thinking being that, yeah, let's get you involved in some different areas of HR, and then we will place you somewhere permanently within that department. And I went through employment, I went through employee relations and a couple other things. the plan itself to me was incredible. The problem became that the bank got bought.

we were bought and know, dream ended, plan ended. And I was doing, what I was doing, I was enjoying, I was making a difference. I was helping to hire people, going through, you know, the employee relations and things like that. And like I said, you know, Thomas, it was okay. It wasn't something where every day I would wake up and I was like, man, I can't wait to get to work today. And with what I've been doing now for all these years, I am just absolutely passionate about it.

Thomas (08:44.469)
Right. No, that's fantastic. Now after, after you're doing your HR, or maybe this was part of it, my, my, my, my brain's a little bit fuzzy. but I have in my notes, I have in my notes that you, had a, you had a difficult period, while you were in St. Louis. and you can, can you tell us a little bit about that?

Ron Reich (08:53.451)
you

Ron Reich (09:00.578)
Yes.

Ron Reich (09:03.948)
Yeah, yeah. There I just went through a very, difficult time in my life. My first marriage was falling apart. My ex wife was from St. Louis. I had moved back there after getting my master's degree. I went out, I went back to St. Louis to live with my mother-in-law and my brother-in-law. Kathy was still in New Jersey and she was going to stay here until I got a job out there.

and then come out. And we were in trouble when I even went out there. And very, very long story short, our marriage fell apart. I came back home and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. Cause again, the HR stuff was okay and all that. I mean, I can continue with the story. I know I shared with you out of nowhere. I'm living with my parents cause I had nowhere else to go.

I got a telephone call from this guy, Tom Sparks, a recruiter in Dallas. He found me in New Jersey at my parents' house saying that I have a job for you with Toshiba. It's the exact opposite of what you are. They are looking for somebody who has a lot of training and some HR. You have a little bit of training and a lot of HR.

I can get you in front of them, I guarantee that, because I know them extremely well. You need to get them to flip their competencies. I went in and I talked with them and they were willing to do that. One thing led to the next and I've been in this for the last 32, 33 years.

Thomas (10:47.425)
Amazing. So what, what, were they looking for and why did they want somebody that was a lot of training and little, little HR and why did he think that you were a good fit?

Ron Reich (10:58.648)
They were, it was a lot of sales training. This was so many years ago that it was for copier and fax training for sales reps. And they wanted somebody with a lot of training because it was going to be facilitating a lot of sales training courses. The job itself at that time required some recruiting of sales reps. So that was where the HR piece came in.

And they apparently saw something in me and I was talking to them about my passion for getting into training because that was something I had dreamt about for a long time. And apparently they saw it, they believed it and I'm very grateful that they took that chance on me, if you will.

Thomas (11:49.06)
And what was, what was that, what was that position like? Because you, like, I'm sure that there was a, there was a little bit of a learning curve. If they were looking for somebody that is, you know, more of a training than, than HR and you have a lot of HR and not a little, a lot of training.

Ron Reich (12:01.518)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Reich (12:05.837)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There was there. mean, there was a very, very big learning curve for me. And again, I'm so grateful that they were patient with me. And what ended up happening, you know, I started doing my thing. And, you know, I was getting good, you know, good feedback from everybody from the participants, from my boss and just everybody else. I was growing and Thomas, they saw something in me.

that I just did not see in myself because after a couple of years, my boss and my boss's boss both came to me and said, we're wondering if you might want to consider getting into some management development work. You know, we're very happy with the way things are going here. We do some management development for the independent dealers that we work with. And if you're interested, we'll get you involved in that. And I was like, sure, yeah, I'd love to get into that.

And that was really my start into that realm. And again, one thing led to the next, and here I am.

Thomas (13:14.467)
Fantastic fantastic So It sounds like you had a good thing going at Toshiba what what me what made you what made you want to leave?

Ron Reich (13:27.217)
I chuckle because one thing and one thing only and that was that I was traveling so much. was on the road probably 85 % of the time and I mean it was just the absolute classic. Get up Monday morning, go to the office for an hour or two, head to the airport, know, fly wherever, do your class Tuesday through Friday, fly home.

you know, get home, do your laundry, know, pay your bills and you know, all that other stuff, you know, try to get a couple things done over the weekend and then same thing starting Monday morning. And I did that for about, I don't know, four and a half, five years. And I got to a point where I had no life. I just had absolutely no life. And I mean, and it's actually, it's something I'm, I am proud of it. The day I called Barbara.

to resign. She was my boss out in California. I called her, got her on the phone, and I was like, Barbara, I need to tell you something that I'm resigning. And you could hear her quote unquote deflate on the other end. And I always remember her initial comment right off the bat, Ron, I can get you more money. I can get you more money. Tony's in his office right now. I'm looking through the glass. I can see him in there.

I'll go in there right now, I can get you more money. And I remember saying to her, Barbara, it's not the money. It's just not. I'm actually happy with what I make. I think it's fair. I said, I'm just traveling too much. And I just, needed to leave. I didn't want to, truly I didn't. And, you know, I'll carry the story through a little bit because to me it's important. I did not know at the time how...

unbelievably high the bar was at Toshiba and how unbelievably talented they were. They were just an incredible group of people. I joined a competitor and I don't like to bash other companies so I'm not going to share who it was and I realized very very quickly how low the bar was there and I was like man what a difference and they weren't looking to

Ron Reich (15:48.012)
change much at that other company. no, this is how we do things here. And I was like, we can get so much better. my goodness. No, no, no, no, no. We don't do that here. Okay.

Thomas (16:02.091)
And there's so many questions. so I'm going to, I'm going to get to, to, to one of them soon, but, but you, you, you, you're mentioning that Toshiba set the bar so high. What was it? what were some of the things that, that was such a high bar at Toshiba that wasn't apparent other than other places that you ended up.

Ron Reich (16:23.722)
The principles of adult learning that were in place is that the training was beautifully designed. The training was all about end results. And that is what it's all about. And we actually were measuring the effectiveness of our training. And again, these are all things I knew nothing about when I got there.

And realizing is like, okay, this is how everybody must do things. So again, just the design of the training was so good and just worked so well relative to.

Again, I'll just say leading to the best results for the participants. plus, the people were wonderful. I I just worked for some wonderful, wonderful people there. And my colleagues too. I mean, I am still friends and in touch with a couple of the people. And it's been well over 25 years since I've been there.

Thomas (17:31.139)
Right. Amazing. And you from there, we won't talk about that competitor. It sounds like it's left somewhat of a bad taste in your mouth. But you moved afterwards into the pharmaceutical industry. Tell me what you were doing there.

Ron Reich (17:45.478)
you

Ron Reich (17:53.56)
That was interesting too because I joined starting off doing some sales training for the pharmaceutical reps and Joe, my boss, had said to me, I will get you involved from the get-go into management development. And again, one thing led to the next. He saw some things in me that he liked and ultimately took me out of the sales training role.

and full time into the management development. And that was where I had probably, I will say, the most fun in my entire career, at least in corporate. Just everything, the Future Leaders program that my colleague and I were responsible for, and just everything was so much fun there.

Thomas (18:48.545)
During our conversation, you mentioned there was a moment where you said your boss brought yourself and I think you're one of your colleagues into his office and essentially passed the baton on to you. That was to me such a great leadership moment. Can you share a little bit about that story?

Ron Reich (19:14.414)
Absolutely. Again, another very, very proud moment in my career. Joe came to David and I, my colleague, on a Wednesday afternoon. I still remember this. Pretty late Wednesday afternoon. Hey, you two clowns, nicely. I need to see you in my office tomorrow at 10 o'clock. Okay. Anything we should think about, Joe? No, just show up. Okay. We go in at 10 o'clock, shut the door.

And you could see something was on his mind. You could also tell nothing was wrong. That part was clear. He just said to his gentlemen, when I came here seven years ago, I was all by myself. I started this department alone. I designed, I developed, and I implemented, and I have been delivering with your help now over the years, the Future Leaders Program. And now he's emotional. And he's like, guys.

The Future Leaders Program has gotten old. It has gotten tired. It needs a lot of work. It needs a lot of revisions. And he looked David and I right in the eyes. Guys, it's yours. It's yours. I'm going to turn this over to the two of you. This is what I want done. This is the timeline. And, you know, we'll talk about outlines and, just all these other things.

And as we were leaving his office, his last comment, gentlemen, yes, Joe, make me proud. And again, such a leadership moment, because I gained so much respect for him, realizing he was giving up his baby. This was his. And he turned it over to us, which to me was very, very meaningful. Because if he hadn't, how were David and I going to grow? How were we going to develop?

and just all of these other things. And that turned out to be, like I said, probably the most fun I ever had in my career.

Thomas (21:15.395)
Fantastic. did he ever share with you how he came to that realization?

Ron Reich (21:22.542)
He never said it to us directly. mean, we had been, the three of us had been delivering it together for maybe a couple of years. And I think he just knew, he just knew, goes, I'm comfortable. The two of them are gonna do a fine job with this. I have nothing to really worry about here. And he had other things to do too. You know, I mean, as a leader, he can spend his time looking at the bigger picture, looking at.

How else can our department contribute and so forth? So to answer the question, he never shared it directly. It was clear indirectly that that was what he was thinking about.

Thomas (22:06.691)
Because it's such a, again, to me, that was such a great leadership moment in terms of a story, in terms of a story being, able to realize where the program was and that there was somebody better in the team that would be able to move forward with that program. And to be able to, to, be able to step back from that, because again, like you were saying, this was this baby.

Ron Reich (22:13.375)
you

Thomas (22:35.849)
and so many of us, in, leadership positions, you know, are, are unable to, are unable to, to, divorce ourselves from, from that, from that, from that passion, right? Yeah. So that was amazing. Amazing. so how long, how long were you, how long were you with the, this farm? It sounded like you, this, I mean, this, this sounds like this, you were having such a great time. how long were you there and what made you leave?

Ron Reich (22:48.898)
Yes, yes, that's exactly right.

Ron Reich (23:05.998)
we were there uh... i i was there

maybe five and a half years, something along those lines. And I'll never forget the day, March 6th, 2003, walk into work, company was reorganizing. We all knew the company was reorganizing. The senior leadership had shared that yes, we're taking a look at everything. And for the first time in the history of this company, there are going to be some layoffs. Walked into work and...

even just backing up a little bit, as a training team, we had all met on several different occasions just to talk about, do we think we're safe or not? All of us believed we were. We really did. We were doing good work. We had a good reputation, everything that goes along with that. And on March 6, 2003, the entire training team got laid off. And that was the end of that. And, know, the Future Leaders Program.

of course went away with that and everything else, which was really sad and out of our control.

Thomas (24:17.397)
And from there you, you decided, I mean, you didn't want to get another job. What made you decide, you know what? I'm going to go out on my own now.

Ron Reich (24:27.266)
Number one, I was tired of the politics. I was tired of just everything, everything like these situations occurring, never knowing, are we gonna get laid off again? Is there gonna be another restructuring or whatever it might be? And Joe made a comment to me years earlier. going out on my own had always been in the back of my mind.

Never at the forefront or anything is like at some point in time, I might wanna go out on my own. Joe and I had gone down to Tampa, Florida to get certified for a conflict resolution class. So we spent our time down there fine. We flew back up and I still remember we were at the baggage carousel waiting for our bags and Joe just made the comment to me or he asked me, goes, hey.

How many certifications do you have now? I don't know, Joe. This makes 12, 13, 14, know, whatever it is. And he just sort of gave me a wry smile. Then he goes, when are you going out on your own? And I looked at him back and I was like, Joe, at some point in time that probably will happen. I just don't know when yet. was kind of a sign of things to come.

Thomas (25:52.676)
Makes sense, makes sense. You just mentioned there, talking about conflict resolution. I know we're going off on a tangent. I I hear a lot about conflict resolution. What I hear less about is, and I don't know, because conflict is good, right? But do people in leadership talk about, I don't know, conflict?

Ron Reich (26:05.71)
you

Ron Reich (26:12.759)
Absolutely.

Thomas (26:20.623)
management or mitigation or conflict prevention, like how to navigate, just, not just resolve conflicts, but as conflicts are starting to, to show.

Thomas (26:39.211)
as opposed to, you know what, now there's a full-blown conflict and how do we resolve that? All right, it seems like there's a lot more afterwards than there is in the beginning or the middle of that conflict. Am I incorrect or is...

Ron Reich (26:43.618)
Yeah.

Ron Reich (26:54.434)
No, no, I think you're spot on. I think you're spot on. To start, I think a big, big part of avoiding conflict or avoiding problems is expectations need to be crystal, crystal, crystal clear around everything, no matter what it is. I mean, it can be as, I don't want to say as small as, because these are all important things.

We don't interrupt each other during meetings. No texting during meetings. We start on time. This is your deadline. What we, and again, not, is there anything that could prevent you going back to the David Marquet book? What could prevent you from getting this to me on time? Nothing. Okay, great. And then if something goes haywire, I'm a little confused here. I'm struggling with the fact that

You missed the deadline because you said there was nothing that would prevent you. What's going on here? Be honest with me. Just those kinds of things. When you set clear expectations in the beginning, then it prevents so many problems down the road. I mean, it just does. For example, I tell this story all the time.

I was doing a class for the American Management Association, Washington DC, a number of years ago, three day class, set the expectation day one. Everybody, can we please all agree, and I laid a few expectations out fine, the last one being what I mentioned earlier, please folks, no texting while we're in here, no emailing while we're in here. If something comes up for you, I'm okay with that, take care of it, absolutely.

Please step out of the room. On the morning of day three, two guys who worked together were texting constantly, just right from the get go, for like the first 15, 20 minutes. And I was like, I gotta do something about this. I gotta do something. Long story short, I approached them quietly and tactfully. That's important to note. And I was like, gentlemen, the two of you have been texting ever since we started. I need it to stop right now.

Ron Reich (29:15.552)
One of them looked at me, we're both listening. I don't care whether you're listening or not. That's not the point. The point is you agreed you wouldn't, expectations having been set, you're doing it, and you're distracting me, you're distracting your colleagues, equally as important. If I let this continue, I'm giving permission to everybody in this room to do that behavior, and that's not okay with me.

The two of them were so angry, they got up and walked out and did not come back. And I ask people over time, how much did that upset me? And a lot of people say, you must have been just distraught. my goodness, that must have been horrible. was like, no, no. Was I upset? Absolutely, a little bit. I was. I mean, it's not easy to watch people leaving your class and know when they're not coming back, except you knew the expectations.

You agreed to it. Don't be mad at me. All I did was enforce the expectation to which you agreed, which could have been, and if I hadn't set that expectation, guys, I need you to stop texting, please. You never told us. Well, it's rude. And now all of a sudden you've got a problem. Set the expectation and there's no issue, except you need to enforce it.

Thomas (30:34.251)
Right. Right. And I mean, that, that, I mean, we're talking about books and that, that, that reminds me of something that they, that they were talking about in the culture code, which, they were saying that, you know, a lot of times when it comes to teams, it just takes one, one bad member to, to, know, to turn the, to make the, to leave a bad seat, you know, to start having negative effects on, on, on a team. Right. So.

Ron Reich (30:41.422)
you

Thomas (31:01.411)
And I think that if you had continued with those two members disrupting things, then that would have been that moment.

Ron Reich (31:13.144)
Yeah, well, and Thomas, I'll tell you what was interesting as well. This happened at about 9.30 in the morning, you know, right after we started. They left about 11 o'clock, whatever it was. Somebody else from a different company was sitting at their table. He came up to me. He goes, can I talk to you for a minute? Yeah, of course, what is it? Thank you so much for taking care of that. They were distracting me. I couldn't pay attention.

And I really respect you for taking care of the problem. People are watching the leaders. People are watching.

Thomas (31:50.21)
Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Bravo. so we want to get into the leadership topic. but just before we do, just, I just wanted to, I just want to, cause you, cause you started, our RLB, afterwards and we didn't finish your, your journey. So I just wanted to make sure that we recovered that. so tell me a little bit about kind of

Ron Reich (32:01.549)
you

Thomas (32:15.459)
how you start, why you started, how you started, and what RLB is right now.

Ron Reich (32:20.354)
Yeah, yeah. I decided to start it kind of like what we were talking about earlier, just because I was tired of the corporate politics, the corporate just everything going on. And I was in a position where I had the ability and the flexibility. I shouldn't say I, we, because my wife and I, we had the flexibility financially to do it.

And just every which way, I talked to her and I was like, Lori, what do you think about me trying this? She was like, I'm okay with it. I know you're good at what you do. You know you're good. And one thing led to the next. I did start it. And it took time. I mean, there's just no getting around it. It probably took at least two years to get to a point where I was busy.

and then just busier and busier. And it's been a lot of fun throughout the years. I mean, there have been the challenges, no doubt about it. COVID was a problem. And just other things, of course, that come along the way. And what do I do? Essentially, I I work with mostly smaller mid-size firms and people at all different levels, from owners, presidents.

all the way down through the staff level. I help them do their jobs more effectively through education, training, and coaching.

Thomas (33:54.029)
Amazing

You were talking about, all the people that you're talking to, in terms of leaderships, are there any through lines in terms of some common areas where leaders are stumbling or having difficulty?

Ron Reich (34:01.976)
you

Ron Reich (34:15.926)
I think my experience has been a lot of times the top people in organizations think they're the ones that need the training. know, yes, we need the training, the people below me and the people below the leadership team. And that's one of the biggest mistakes people can make, where it's just like, you know what, how about we all go through the training? And that way there's consistency throughout.

Everybody has been through the same things. You can talk the same language. there's just consistency. And I think that's one of the biggest mistakes leaders make.

Thomas (34:58.209)
Is there a difference then though, the type of training that you would want to provide for C-suite leaders versus maybe the young person that's coming up through the ranks and maybe just getting their entry level management?

Ron Reich (35:14.702)
Sure, sure, sure, absolutely. I we will talk at different levels. With the C-suite individuals, we're talking more bigger picture, we're talking more higher level issues that we're talking about. The concepts themselves are still essentially the same. I mean, they really are. Feedback is feedback. Listening is listening.

Delegating is still delegating and those kinds of things. It's just at a different level.

Thomas (35:48.449)
Mm-hmm.

And again, we've talked about most people are put into leadership positions without having properly trained for to be leaders. What is that change journey like? Because I'd imagine that...

you're training a small group of people that needs to translate to the rest of their team. So what does that kind of, what, what does that look like in terms of that change? I guess change management.

Ron Reich (36:30.806)
I'm gonna go back first to what you were talking about, Thomas, because again, it's a mistake a lot of organizations tend to make. It's that, again, I've done a lot of sales training, so I'll just use that. You're a good sales rep, you're a good sales rep. Wow, you're the best. We're gonna make you sales manager. Not always smart because it's a different set of competencies. And number two,

is how interested is the individual in becoming a manager. So often it's like, this is where you need to go, or people have believed for many years. The only way I can move up or do well in an organization is to get promoted and move up the ladder and move up the ladder. And that's not always the case. And there's nothing wrong with that if people don't want to get promoted.

And I mean, it was, I'll go back to the Future Leaders program at the pharmaceutical where I worked. I love to work out. And I was working, we were at a hotel one time for one of the sessions for this Future Leaders. It's early in the morning, I'm working out and one of the attendees came in and he started working out as well. So we're just chatting a little bit and everything else. And I was like, how are you enjoying it? How's it going for you?

And he looked at me and he was like, Ron, I don't think I want to continue with this. This isn't who I am. I was like, good, good, okay. I mean, I'm glad to find this out now so that you don't get into a leadership position. And, you know, two, three years down the road, whatever it might be, and then everybody loses along the way. You know, it's like, it's okay.

different set of competencies and again how interested are these individuals because it's just totally different.

Thomas (38:37.923)
Yeah, and absolutely. also, and also it might just be a time of time and place in their life at that moment. because like right now, right now you're not, you don't feel like you're, this is what you want and you're not ready for it or, or, you know, you're not in a place in your life where you want this. that doesn't mean that later on you don't want, but at the very least now when you are, when you do want it, you know what you're looking at, you know what it is that you're, you know, those, the situation has changed that.

Ron Reich (38:43.182)
you

Ron Reich (39:02.967)
Exactly.

Thomas (39:07.251)
now I am doing these things that I enjoy in terms of being, becoming a leader. Hey, then that's something that you can pursue at that point. No, that's, that's great. Yeah, absolutely.

Ron Reich (39:16.353)
That's That's right. My life has changed. Circumstances have changed. Whatever it might be. And again, the good leaders care deeply about the people and what's going on with them personally and professionally. I mean, I'll follow up with that because to me, this was very significant as well. Going back to the pharmaceutical company.

did a one day time management class. As a part of the class, we asked the participants to write a personal mission statement. Who are you, what are you, and what's important to you? Fine. Class is over, people are saying goodbye and just everything else. One of the participants was from Philadelphia. She came up to me, Ron, thank you so much. I got so much out of this. And I was like, oh, you you're welcome. And she had tears in her eyes. She was like, I'm going to resign.

And I looked at her and I was like, okay. She said, this course has helped me to realize I'm not being a good wife. I'm not being a good mother. This job is eating me alive and I'm not okay with that. I was like, good, good. I'm so glad this was revealed to you because what kind of employee is she gonna be? I mean, I want her to be a good mother. want her to have, you know, to be a good wife and to be happy.

Thomas (40:36.259)
Mmm.

Ron Reich (40:42.026)
And again, if she's getting eaten alive and so torn, she's not good to anybody.

Thomas (40:46.625)
Right. Right. Ron, it sounds like you're talking a lot of people out of leadership here. now, you know, looking back now, the, company that you said was a competition to, to, to, to Shiva. and cause you were saying that there was a lot of friction, and reluctance to change. now that you've been your,

Ron Reich (40:53.558)
Not a lot, some.

Thomas (41:16.349)
Wisen over the years. Is there something that you could have done or is there something or, or just some companies and some leadership groups just so stuck and, you know, stuck in their ways that they refuse to change? Is there something that you could have done now that you look upon it? or if say, for example, in your position now going into that company today, that you could,

Ron Reich (41:17.774)
you

Thomas (41:45.388)
in site change.

Ron Reich (41:47.663)
Yeah, definitely. I think two things are in place. Number one, is there anything I could have done differently? Yes. You know, being a little older now, having more experience. Yeah, I could have approached it a little bit more effectively. I probably could have built a stronger business case in some of the things I tried to, you know, to have them consider or to have them change. No doubt about it. Additionally,

It was my experience there and I did stay in touch with some people over the years as well. This was the type of company overall, not even just our department, just did not want to change, just didn't. This is how we do things. We've been successful. You could be more successful if, no, no, no, no, no. And at some point in time, and again, that people have told me over the years way back then and I believe it now,

There's going to come a time where it's just, okay, if I stay, I can't complain about it, or I need to leave, and I chose to leave.

Thomas (42:57.197)
Right. Cause that seems to me like a common problem, right? That, that a lot of leaders, a lot of companies, you know, we've always done, we've always done it this way. We've, know, our, we've been successful. We've done it. We've gotten this far from it. from being, from doing it this way. And I understand like, you know, you just mentioned that, there are, there are things that can be done that, you know, that you can become more successful. But is that, is that the most common?

Ron Reich (43:02.082)
you

Thomas (43:26.243)
obstacle that you encounter or are there other or, you at the same time, you know, people are reaching out to you because they're already, they're already in that change mentality. So it is, but where, where, where's, where's the friction from the leadership group usually, that you're seeing.

Ron Reich (43:47.597)
I think the friction comes from, number one, again, kind of what we talked about, they're the ones that need it when everybody needs it. Additionally, I think one of the other things that I'm encountering is that, we don't have the time for this. We just don't have the time to make such a big investment in the people and to commit to having them go to this training several times.

and the follow-ups that are necessary. And if you're not willing to do that, then it's just not worth it. It's just, I mean, it's just not. And again, there's a, I don't remember if we talked about this or not in our pre-call, a food company here in New Jersey where we live, I was talking to two of the senior leaders and they were saying to me,

This is a while back. Ron, we need management training. No doubt about it. We're a family owned company and we've been in business for many years and people are running rough shot over everybody and all this other, we need management training. I was like, yes, yes you do. Except if we try to train the managers without training the whole senior team first, it's just gonna be worthless. Absolutely worthless.

We need to develop a formal culture for this organization. We need to put the senior team through some training and then we can worry about the other people. Because otherwise you're throwing your money away. You're just throwing your money away. We started doing that. We started with the culture piece. We started with a little bit of the senior training. And you know what? We don't have the time for this. We'll get back to you when we want to pick it up again.

and it's been crickets.

Thomas (45:44.814)
Yeah, absolutely. and I love that you're getting into train and talking about, talking about culture. there's, can't remember which, where I read it. but there's, there's a danger of letting, and maybe it was from our, our conversations, but there's a danger of letting culture happen to you as opposed to you affecting culture.

Ron Reich (45:51.758)
you

you

Ron Reich (46:07.82)
Right, yep. If your company doesn't have a formal culture, it will form itself. And the other phrase I like is, I'll ask people, and I read this in a book not long ago, what is company culture? What is company culture? And people give examples, it's behaviors, it's policies, all that other, fine, right. And an author in a book wrote,

Company culture is the lowest level of acceptable behavior. That's what your company culture is. And I like that, that makes sense to me. And again, yeah, the point for me, I won't speak for anybody else. I wanna have a formal culture and I want people to know how they need to behave, what they need to do in order to succeed. And I don't mean that from a micromanager perspective.

Thomas (46:46.893)
I love that.

Ron Reich (47:05.162)
All I'm talking about is this is our vision statement. This is how we make our decisions. These are the values by which we work. These are the values we follow on a day-to-day basis. And they need to work for you. If they don't work for you, then you need to go somewhere else because you can't be a part of this. And it's that simple.

Thomas (47:26.059)
Right. Right. And those core, you know, a lot of people talk about those core values. mean, we talk about core values and marketing and branding a lot. Right. But we're talking more, we talk about branding and we talk about branding and marketing in terms of those core values that's outward facing. and I think that there is, a whole, a gap.

Ron Reich (47:35.726)
you

Thomas (47:56.284)
that isn't being filled in the internal culture that, and I, but at the same time, I think it's, I think most, especially for small businesses, you know, because you don't want to step on too many toes and what have you, that they are reluctant or hesitant to stay firm on those values.

Am I am I am I off that am I off am I off there?

Ron Reich (48:27.118)
Not at all. Not at all. And this is where, again, going back to how important it is to set expectations, I say to people all the time, senior leaders, if you want to go through this culture information and all of this organizational development work, I'll be glad to do it. Here comes the expectation. You need to be ready to let some people go.

who are not willing to buy into this because if you don't let them go, again, it's worthless. And one of my clients, it's about, for argument's sake, a 100-person heavy-duty towing slash transport company in Indianapolis. We went through all of this different work and I said to Jeff and to his right-hand man, was like, guys, you need to be ready.

to let some people go who don't buy into this. And they're like, okay, okay, we are. And when it came time, Jeff was very hesitant because he is such a wonderful guy. I mean, he is, he cares so deeply about his people. And it's like, Jeff, this isn't working out. This isn't working out. know, I'm not gonna use the name. I just don't like to do that, whatever. He's not buying into it. You need to let him go.

And ultimately he did. And it's for the betterment of everybody because nobody's going to win. If people are not buying into it, they need to go because, and you said it earlier too, Thomas, one person can spoil the entire batch.

Thomas (50:17.091)
So what makes a good culture? mean, when you're, when you're listing out these cultural values, mean, everybody, we all want the same thing. We all want, you know, we all want to, for us to be, to be conscientious. We all want for everybody to be polite and we all want everybody to work together, collaborate. We all say that. Right. So what makes for a good culture?

Ron Reich (50:33.719)
you

Ron Reich (50:39.33)
To me, it's involving as many people as possible in designing and developing the culture itself. Involving the senior leaders, involving the next level of management, and involving as many people as you can from, you know, the office, from the manufacturing floor, if you will, from the field, whatever it might be. Because...

The more people you can get involved, the more it's theirs instead of, folks, here's our culture that we're gonna force on you. It's like, no, this is our culture that we all developed together. And that's part of, to me, what's so much fun about this, because you get a lot of input from all of these different levels.

Thomas (51:18.627)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Reich (51:36.591)
And then once the workshop starts, then you also want to have representation from all of these different levels in the room. The senior leaders need to be there, some managers need to be there, and some people from, again, from the office, from the field, whatever it might be, need to be there. And I'll tell you something, I was a little nervous about this with this transport towing company.

And some of the best, best input, some of the best ideas came from the tow truck drivers and the heavy equipment operators who were out in the field. Just talking about what you're saying here, doesn't make sense. That's not gonna work for us. And say, okay, what do we need to do? And again, this way, it's everybody's. Here's our culture, folks.

You have to adapt to it, no? It's our culture.

Thomas (52:39.639)
Right, right. So it sounds like the first step is to...

to communicate and to figure out what that culture is going to be. So what's the next step?

Ron Reich (52:50.862)
Yeah.

Ron Reich (52:56.654)
Once you've done that, the next step is developing a mission statement for the organization itself that's very, very clear that needs to be the guiding light for decision making. In other words, when there's a tough decision to make, if there's a debate going on, the question is, how does this tie, you know, our decision needs to be consistent with our mission statement.

It's got to tie into our mission statement because this is who we are and what we are. Additionally, we develop what's called a culture statement, meaning that there's a statement, again, developed by everybody in that room. This is what we want it to be like to work at this company. At X company, we believe in being honest with each other.

We take care of our customers quickly and dependably. Whatever it might be, you have a culture statement and that also needs to be a part of everyday conversation. We also develop values defined by the company itself. Not the classic, what's the Wikipedia definition of transparency and accountability?

Anybody can do that, that's easy. When you start to define it by the company itself, then it's real. Then it's real. And that's how a true culture emerges.

Thomas (54:34.231)
Right. Now, but the process in which, we're, you know, I was just thinking back about what we were talking about, what we're just talking about in terms of defining that culture. And you were talking about how getting every level of management from, from the, from C-suite level to, to, know, the, the kind of the junior managers to be on board with this and to discover it together. That sounds a little bit different and difficult if you're getting into, you know, the

Ron Reich (54:40.366)
you

Thomas (55:02.441)
Amazons of the world the coca-cola of the world where you're starting to have bajillion levels of management Is there a size limitation in which this is effective?

Ron Reich (55:11.79)
Yeah, for me, and Thomas, that's one of the reasons I limit myself to the mid-size smaller firms. Simply because I'm by myself. I don't have the bandwidth to work with a thousand, know, a company with a thousand employees or, you know, anything along those lines. I can't do it. It's impossible. And again, and I don't want to because I know myself. It's part of my vision statement.

and my mission. So yeah, it's, mean, can you do it with these huge organizations? Absolutely, absolutely, except you have to have a lot of different facilitators, you have to have a lot of coordination and those kinds of things.

Thomas (55:58.574)
Makes sense, makes sense. So in terms of that change, a lot of people are reluctant to change, right? And even if they want to change, know, where do you, where have you found to be the most friction?

Ron Reich (56:21.786)
I think it comes from a lot of different areas. Number one, just people themselves are reluctant to change. You're taking me out of my comfort zone. I've got to learn something new. Am I going to lose my job? Am I not going to be sitting next to my old coworker any longer? All of these different things. And for me, it goes back to two different things.

Number one, anytime there's a change, always, always let people know what the goal of the change is. We are developing a new culture because we wanna make sure that we are treating everybody equally. wanna have the best retention possible, just all of these other things. What's our goal? What's our goal? Wonderful.

Equally as important, and this is one of the reasons I love to read so much. I was reading a book many, many years ago written by Jack Welsh. And I still remember I was sitting at a gate at the airport in Charlotte, North Carolina. And he was talking about change management in this book. And his comment was always, always, yes, trumpet the goal. In addition, let people know what your fears are.

if nothing changes. And that got my attention. Because then it's like, yes, everybody, you know, we want to, you know, our goal is to have a formal culture. It's going to increase morale. It's going to increase customer retention and employee retention. You know, some people, you know, will buy into the rah rah. Not everybody will. And that's okay. On the other side of that, folks, if we don't develop a formal culture, nothing's going to change. We're going to continue to have.

We're going to have more turnover. We're going to have lot of inconsistency. And you know, all of these other things. And I'll tell you what, our competitors are going to blow right past us if we don't do this. So you address both sides of the equation.

Thomas (58:34.243)
Makes sense. So.

This, think it sounds like this is like the first step, making recognizing what the culture change should be having the culture shift. And is that the, you know,

Ron Reich (58:40.526)
you

Thomas (58:57.099)
And like you were talking about, sharing the vision of the leadership. Are these the basic tenets of good leadership? Or what else are we looking for in terms of what a leader should be doing?

Ron Reich (59:15.512)
These are the tenets of good leadership, no doubt. And then once this is in place, it's at that point in time, you need to make sure that everybody gets the formal leadership training relative to the competencies. And what I mean by the competencies, emotional intelligence, listening, feedback, delegating, how to create a motivational environment and all of these other things.

because you can create a wonderful culture, except if people don't have the competencies to listen well, or they aren't emotionally intelligent, or they don't know how to give feedback and all of these other things, you have a very stra, your foundation is just gonna crumble.

Thomas (01:00:04.867)
So if somebody doesn't have high emotional intelligence, they're not going to be a good leader. Is that what you're saying? So, you know, when we are talking to leaders, right?

Ron Reich (01:00:11.598)
I believe that. Yeah, yeah. There's, mean, Daniel Goleman, one of the thought leaders within emotional intelligence, his research indicates that the higher you go in an organization, the more important your emotional intelligence becomes. Essentially, his research indicates your level of success can be as high as 85%, 85 % of your success.

is based on your level of emotional intelligence. How well you work with other people, not your level of expertise in your given area. So yeah, leaders need to be emotionally intelligent.

Thomas (01:00:53.909)
Is emotional intelligence teachable?

Ron Reich (01:00:58.248)
absolutely. I do a module on emotional intelligence all the time. And there's absolutely teachable.

Thomas (01:01:04.962)
Okay.

Okay. Because a lot of people talk about, know, depending on the way that you look at it, right? The disc method and you might, there's a color, you know, red, yellow, blue, green, you know, blah, blah, blah. There's all these, right? That book from the one that I read was surrounded by idiots. And, you know, just people are different, right? How, you know, we think of, we think of, and in that color one,

Ron Reich (01:01:17.286)
Hahaha

Thomas (01:01:37.055)
You know, we think of we think of people with EQ as the kind of the yellow blues and greens, but the people who are read, the people who are really assertive and aggressive and you know what, you know, super a type personalities. What does what does developing EQ look like for them?

Ron Reich (01:01:39.32)
you

Ron Reich (01:01:57.231)
Developing EQ for them and for anybody needs to be getting to know yourself on a very, very, very deep level. Who are you? What are you? What are your guiding values? Fine. What are your strengths? What are your limitations? And people need to be comfortable talking about those out loud, sharing them out loud.

with their colleagues. Guys, these are the things at which I'm good and I'm proud of that. These are areas where I struggle relative to the people who can be really assertive and can come across, not necessarily that they are, they can appear to be bullies, mean-spirited, heartless, those kinds of things. That's where the recommendation that I always make to them, spend time with people. Get to know people better.

Just spend some downtime with them. Let them know you're human. I had life-changing evening many, many years ago working at Toshiba. It's a long story. I'll make it short. The entire training team is invited to California for a meeting. Tony Codiani is the director of training at Toshiba, the head kahuna. One evening, there were only three of us available to go to dinner with him. Myself.

My two colleagues, Rob and Frank, were walking out of the building and I will never, Tony is the most assertive, loud, pushy guy in the world. Brilliant. Also pushy, mean, you know, all those other things, fine. We're walking out of the building and I'll never forget, he turns to us, he goes, guys, where do you want to go? And the first, that was the first indicator something was different. Because the typical Tony, this is where we're going, Ron, you should get this special.

Don't get that, Rob, you'll get sick. we banter a little bit, we end up at a California pizza kitchen. This crazy, mean-spirited jerk was insanely funny. Just insanely funny. We're laughing and laughing, having this incredibly good time. Looking at him like, all right, who are you and what did you do with Tony? Tony put it together right away. He's also brilliant.

Ron Reich (01:04:19.18)
To this day, Thomas, I wish I knew the reason he picked on me and not Rob or Frank. He leans into me, never called me Ron, always called me Ryke. Hey, Ryke, I got a question for you. Yeah, sure, Tony. What is it? We're so much fun. He leaned into me and I won't use the language he used because it's inappropriate. He just goes, hey, Ron. No, and I'm sorry. Hey, Ryke, I'm not a jerk, am I? And I was like, uh-oh.

Uh-oh. I'm quote unquote backing up a little bit. I looked at Rob and Frank. I was like, I could use some help here. They saw something on the ceiling they thought was interesting. And my point, this was my tone when I answered Tony. And I hesitated and I was like, no, Tony, you're not. And this was his response and this was his tone. I know how I come across.

And I don't mean to. I love this department. I love Toshiba. Gentlemen, I truly hope you believe me because I do love the three of you. We are nowhere without your contributions. And he went on to talk for a while. And I realized it was like this mean-spirited, arrogant, pushy jerk is okay. It's how he comes across. And it was his passion.

that was causing that. It changed my relationship with him. Anytime moving forward, he was in front of a room screaming and yelling and hollering, just like, all right, it's okay. It's just Tony being Tony. He cares about us and he wants the best for us. That's all, let him scream and holler. It's all right. And it changed me. It changed our relationship.

Thomas (01:06:15.959)
He would have to do that for everybody coming in, he not?

Ron Reich (01:06:20.012)
He, I wish he would have. That's a very good point, yes. That's a very, very good point, yes. Yes.

Thomas (01:06:26.935)
Because unless he had that time, like you were saying, you know, at CPK, he would, he would still, you know, the other people who weren't there, you said there were only three of you, right? Then, then the other people wouldn't see that.

Ron Reich (01:06:33.998)
Hmm.

Ron Reich (01:06:39.948)
Yeah, yeah.

You know what, Thomas, I never thought about that. That's a very, very, very good point. I really did. I never gave that a thought. If Tony really wanted to be most effective, he probably should have done that in front of everybody. I know how I come across sometimes, folks, and I don't mean to. I'm passionate. I care deeply. you know, you absolutely that's that's an incredibly good point. Incredibly.

Thomas (01:07:11.063)
I don't make very much of those on that note. We're going to end. But before we do, you know, I love this conversation. I think there's not enough of it when it comes to leadership and management and change and culture. You know, if people have more questions, are you available for them?

Ron Reich (01:07:13.792)
Hahaha!

Ron Reich (01:07:27.566)
you

Ron Reich (01:07:34.03)
Oh, goodness, yes, absolutely. LinkedIn is the best way to do it. Just my name, Ron Reich, R-E-I-C-H, R-L-B Training and Development. Please feel free to reach out and I will gladly chat with anybody. And again, really, the important thing I say there is chat, and I mean that. And it's not gonna be, oh, we need to work together. I can't talk to you anymore. I have to charge you for this. I'll say, no, let's talk about some things.

And if there's something there where there's some synergy and we can work together, wonderful. And if there's not, I'll still help you any way I can. And again, at least we've had the opportunity to see if there's something there.

Thomas (01:08:14.307)
I love that. Thank you so much. And I will have the information in the description. So episode description. if anybody has any questions for Ron, that's a great way to reach out. Ron, thank you so much again. This has been amazing. I love having these conversations and learning a lot from you. And again, like I said, I don't...

Ron Reich (01:08:24.238)
Super.

Ron Reich (01:08:29.23)
you

Ron Reich (01:08:34.36)
So do I.

Thomas (01:08:39.425)
I don't have very good. I don't have that many good ideas. So we're going to end on that note. So I appreciate you Ron. Thank you so much.

Ron Reich (01:08:46.809)
Thank you, it's been my pleasure.